In this episode, hosts April Abele Isaacson and Kimberlynn Davis along with the podcast’s producer, Kristina Travaillot, reflect on the first season of the Sidebars podcast and provide a preview of Season Two.
Sidebars, the first podcast released by Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP, grew out of April’s, Kim’s, and Kristina’s shared recognition that underrepresented voices in patent law had many valuable things to say. A podcast seemed like the perfect platform to showcase trailblazing women and members of other underrepresented communities. The resulting 14 episodes of Season One created a tapestry of interesting, honest, and sometimes even raw conversations that never fail to move listeners.
In this episode, April, Kim, and Kristina discuss the many surprises they encountered in bringing Sidebars to fruition and the work that is yet to be done in their journey to help the practice of patent law continue to grow in diversity and inclusion.
Highlights include:
Thanks for listening to Sidebars! Connect with us:
**The opinions expressed are those of the attorneys and do not necessarily reflect the views of the firm or its clients. This podcast is for general information purposes and is not intended to be and should not be taken as legal advice.
In this episode, hosts April Abele Isaacson and Kimberlynn Davis along with the podcast’s producer, Kristina Travaillot, reflect on the first season of the Sidebars podcast and provide a preview of Season Two.
Sidebars, the first podcast released by Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP, grew out of April’s, Kim’s, and Kristina’s shared recognition that underrepresented voices in patent law had many valuable things to say. A podcast seemed like the perfect platform to showcase trailblazing women and members of other underrepresented communities. The resulting 14 episodes of Season One created a tapestry of interesting, honest, and sometimes even raw conversations that never fail to move listeners.
In this episode, April, Kim, and Kristina discuss the many surprises they encountered in bringing Sidebars to fruition and the work that is yet to be done in their journey to help the practice of patent law continue to grow in diversity and inclusion.
Highlights include:
Thanks for listening to Sidebars! Connect with us:
**The opinions expressed are those of the attorneys and do not necessarily reflect the views of the firm or its clients. This podcast is for general information purposes and is not intended to be and should not be taken as legal advice.
April Abele Isaacson (00:08):
Welcome to Sidebars, Kilpatrick Townsend's limited podcast series focused on women in patent law. I'm April Isaacson, a patent litigator and partner in the San Francisco office.
Kimberlynn Davis (00:19):
And I'm Kim Davis, a patent prosecutor and partner in the Atlanta office. We're here to discuss the gender gap in the patent bar and have candid conversations with female patent practitioners on their career paths.
Kristina Travaillot (00:36):
Welcome to the 15th episode of Sidebars! I am Kristina Travaillot, very, very honored to start and kick off this special retrospective episode. Just looking back at the first season, I'm joined here by our very able hosts, April Abele Isaacson and Kim Davis. And I wanted to just take this opportunity and look back and see. 365 days ago, we did not have this podcast for Kilpatrick Townsend, it was our first foray into podcasting. A year later, we have produced 14 episodes and this will be the 15th episode. We're recording this in Women's History Month and it just all ties in together. April and Kim, how do you feel about the journey from the last 365 days?
April Abele Isaacson (01:35):
Wow. That's such a loaded question in such a good way. I, I think, yeah, I was thinking about it a little bit, because we obviously we didn't plan anything specific. We were just gonna have a discussion amongst us, and just thinking about all of the guests that we've had and all of the three of us having our, our podcast episode that we did during Mental Health Awareness Month, the authenticity and just the raw nature of people really opening up their lives and their hearts to us, for me, every single person who was on the podcast inspired me and made me a better person. I mean, I could go on and on about each guest, but people being open about the adversities that they face, which are different, but yet similar, and how they overcame it to be the strong women that they are. Resilient. Survivors in many instances. I just know that I, my life has been forever changed, because of this opportunity to be doing this podcast and interviewing all of these women that are really one of a kind throughout generations. How about you, Kim?
Kimberlynn Davis (02:56):
April, I agree with absolutely everything that you just said. So, first I'll start by saying ditto. And second, I wanna comment on how important the timing was in releasing the podcast. Right? So, so, okay. Let, let's start here. First of all, all of us, those of us who are sitting here listening to the three of us record, as well as the three of us, we're all terribly busy. Everybody knows that everybody knows there's no perfect time to do this, but the timing was so perfect that we became and how do I say this? We became a group we could rely on. We could confide in, a support system during a time where we just needed it. We all needed it. We were right in the heart of the pandemic, right? And, and hopefully we're, we're coming out of this. We're seeing some light now, right? As, as businesses begin to open back up will soon be returning to work. But I was really touched when a colleague of ours wrote to me and said, "Kim, this is the coffee chat that I need on a daily basis. Right? I don't get a chance to sit in your office and talk to you anymore, but I can press play and hear you ladies speak. And it just gives me that comfort." So I can't speak enough about the impact that all of our guests have made, but also the timing. It could not have been better planned.
April Abele Isaacson (04:22):
And just to dovetail off of that a little bit as both of, you know, my mother passed away about a week and a half ago. And I can say that the two of you have been my rocks for that. And I really appreciate you and all of your support, you know, it was a very complicated relationship, but I'm also just looking at the list of guests and I feel like every single one of these women I could reach out to and talk to and have an honest conversation that could be raw and they would be supportive. So that's something that this sisterhood that we talk about is truly something that I can take and put in my heart and my head to help me through what's obviously a very difficult time.
Kristina Travaillot (05:06):
To your point, Kim, about the timing of this. I may have mentioned this to you both, but I remember late November 2020, we were all still, you know, the vaccine hadn't been released yet. And so we were all still pretty isolated. And I just remember going on a walk around the neighborhood and thinking I need more connection. And I was really—if I had a vision board for 2021—I wanted more women relationships. And when you both came; first, when that article from Mary Hannon came out and you both read it, and you said we wanted to feature women in law in the legal industry. That was it. Like I did not realize that that was the universe coming to me and saying, this is, this is what you need. And again, fast forwarding to last month we had the opportunity, and it was virtual, to see all the guests come back together and, you know, just have an afternoon of connection and fellowship, that impact just seeing everyone on screen, even though it's just a screen, it's not in-person, that touched me so much because April what you said about I can call anyone—and I am, I'm not a lawyer, I just happen to be in the legal industry. I think the conversations that we had and just how candid they were, I felt a connection that to Kim's point was so needed while we have been all separated. But yet in that hour, two hours that we were together, there was a connection and there was a bond that wherever our, you know, this year takes us, I have. I have in my heart. So thank you.
April Abele Isaacson (07:14):
And I'll just add on to that. You know, Kim and I, we first met each other really virtually of course. And that was in October of 2020 when I came back to the firm and I feel like I've known her my entire life. And I think the bond that we've created, that's a lifetime bond and us being able to be honest and authentic with each other, I hope allowed our guests to feel like they could do the same.
Kimberlynn Davis (07:43):
And I sense that, did you ladies sense that during the Summit? And so for the most part, our guests had not met each other. They heard each other's episodes, right? And some of them may have been featured together, but for the most part they had not met, but oh my goodness. My, so listeners, we separated into groups. We had a competition, we won't talk about the winner. We won't, you know, announce that April may have had the winning team there, but, but we all got together and we're just able to have a good time over wine, over lots of wine I should add...
Kristina Travaillot (08:18):
And now that we had the Summit, we're looking into Season Two, and really we thought this was going to be a year long—it was a limited series. And now we foray into Season Two and what's next? What's next for Sidebars?
April Abele Isaacson (08:37):
I would say, I think Kim aptly put it when we had the Summit that the work is not done. When we first decided this was gonna be a limited podcast series it was because we really wanted to address the issues about the gender gap, gender bias within the Patent Bar. Specifically based on Mary Hannon's paper and some of the excellent work she had done to get senators and, you know, really just a larger community thinking about how things for women and other underrepresented groups in the Patent Bar, but then realizing that, me as a patent litigator, who's been an attorney for more than 25 years, that things have gotten a lot better, but there's so much more work that needs to be done, not just in patent litigation and wanting to give some exposure to that. And the co-host that I'm gonna have next season is an attorney who's been practicing for less than three years and we thought that that sort of, as I call it, it's the 50–30 kind of combination of, you know, someone who's been practicing for quite some time, me, and then a newer attorney being able to have these dialogues so that we can support each other and also give some visibility for men who may not be aware that this is how we perceive things and how the world has been for us, but also for those men that have been supportive to just get a little bit more insight into the challenges that we still face. I mean, things have changed a lot and have gotten a lot better, but there is a lot more work that needs to be done. And how about you Kim?
Kimberlynn Davis (10:17):
Oh, I tell you, you know, I always have something up my sleeve, right? So while I will not be involved in the podcast, rest assured that Kim is starting some Good Trouble somewhere. You just, you know that. You already know how I operate in my field. So, so I have two big initiatives, right? And these are ones that you all have heard me speak about. Education, number one. I have two young boys in a public school system, which actually is a phenomenal school system, but still so much work to do. So I'm heavily involved on the school level. I'm the chairperson of the student council and working with the principal to make some needed change there, super involved with the superintendent and, you know, making sure the noise that I can provide is heard by every level that we have. And then the discussion that we've touched on in our very first episode here, I'm not okay with our numbers. And when I say our, I mean, black professionals. People of color broadly, but let's get down to the nuts and bolts, black professionals within the patent field, the numbers are absolutely abysmal and it is my goal to make sure that we improve, increase, make sure that we get the awareness right? So we, we need to start somewhere. So it ties in with my education focus; let's educate earlier and earlier. So going back to our Mental Health episode, do you ladies, remember when I said, I felt COVID robbed me of being able to see my family in person, to get back to New Orleans? I hadn't had that chance. Pleased to announce that I went back, what was it, a week and a half ago? And I feel that I came back just renewed, right? I needed that. I needed to be back in New Orleans, Louisiana, where I remembered why I'm doing what I'm doing to begin with. I actually went to Xavier University of Louisiana. I brought my babies there. I made them stand on every bench we could find, whatever. "Okay, we're taking a picture. Mommy wants to see you do this." And just some just great memories that I had of, you know, the enthusiastic 'I can conquer the world, Kim Davis,' and then the questions—well, Kim Becknell back then actually—and then the questions began, "where did she go?" Like, has fear set in? What's going on with you now? So I, I just feel revived, renewed, and so committed to these goals that I have. They're big, they're lofty goals, but we have to start somewhere. So I won't be too quiet.
April Abele Isaacson (13:01):
Oh, I'm not worried about that. And I just have to give you a little thumbs up. Well, a big thumbs up for invoking John Lewis, because I love the, you know, Good Trouble...
Kimberlynn Davis (13:11):
That's right.
April Abele Isaacson (13:12):
...I mean, no one was more of an icon and a trailblazer for so many issues and, you know, rest his soul. But yeah, Kim, what was it about being back there—particularly being with your boys—that kind of took you back to, you know, having your own retrospective in a sense?
Kimberlynn Davis (13:32):
Okay, so I am going to start that; first of all, April fabulous question. You are really, I'm brought back to that first episode where you interviewed me, right? And I'm like, "oh crap. Why April? Why are you digging so deep?" So you, you're gonna uncover some things today with that question. Xavier University of Louisiana is a HBCU, right? So, so there are different perspectives in terms of the education that you receive at HBCUs—which I'm pleased to report is top notch—but also we're affirmed at every possible moment. We're affirmed not only through speech, by, you know, professors and administrators constantly speaking life into us, "you are our future, you can do this, you go out, you be bold, you conquer the world, do it for your community and the good of humanity do it for everyone." Right? So there's that part, but there's also the part where you see so many people who look just like you. You aren't the unicorn anymore. I'm a unicorn where I am. Let's just be honest in my office, even in Atlanta, Georgia, I am an absolute unicorn people saying "I've never met a black woman with a Ph.D. in chemistry doing patent law. Oh my gosh, you're so unique." Being back there on that soil, in New Orleans, Louisiana, I remembered my strong community and how I'm not so unique in that regard, which is a good thing, right? It's always good to be unique, but not there. We are well represented. And you almost forget that, especially being apart from your family and from that environment for two full years. It was two years. I marked the date from when I was last able to visit and then COVID happened. And then two years later I was able to return home and, and kind of soak in all of that good energy and be reminded it of sitting in those lecture halls where it was tough. Don't get me wrong. But you just felt that spirit of encouragement flowing through each and every building all across the campus. So I think that that's what I remembered. And then I could speak to my boys about it, like, "oh no, this is where mommy did such and such. This is where mommy was in the lab, blah, blah, blah." "Oh, mommy. Do you think I'm gonna go to Xavier one day?" "Uh, yes. You sure will. And take this picture in front of this so that I can show you at your graduation from Xavier." Just things like that. So it just helped me, you know, how you hear a song, right? That brings up all of the memories walking on that campus brought back all of those memories for me.
April Abele Isaacson (16:14):
It's interesting because I know we've talked about before that I went to a women's college and it was one of the Seven Sisters Women's Colleges that were specifically set up because women were not allowed to go to Ivy League schools, right? So that was it. And Mount Holyoke College where I went, we had Emily Dickinson attended Mount Holyoke College, Francis Perkins, who was a real trailblazer because she was the U.S. Secretary of Labor from 1933–1945, obviously a trailblazer. A friend of mine that was a year behind me, she was Deputy Chief of Staff for Rahm Emanuel during the Obama Administration. So seeing women like that, and I'm just naming a handful of people that came from where I went to school. And it's the same thing, Kim, that you were saying, you know, I came from an environment. I started college in 1984, where I went to a very large public high school where raised your hand, you could be in the front row and the teacher would call on the boy sitting next to you. You just were almost invisible in some ways. That's just how it was. To going to a place where when women were running everything and really feeling like you were just from the moment you woke up in the morning until you went to bed at night, surrounded with strong women that supported each other. Because of course, I'm sure it was the same thing at Xavier there's competition, right? Cause we're all, you know, the Type A's and wanting to be successful. But having the people that you're making these lifelong friendships with be supportive of you throughout your whole life. I mean, I'm sure you have the same thing with your former classmates where, you know, these are lifetime relationships that are made because of this ability to be not a unicorn, right? And that environment, and then go out in the world and be a stronger person because of the community that you were able to create based on really having these, a special place that you got to attend for college.
Kimberlynn Davis (18:22):
Absolutely. And the funny thing is I only wish I knew how special it was back then, right? It was our norm. It was, oh, you go to class. You, you know what I mean? "I'm gonna sit next to Miranda." Oh, I miss my friend Miranda. She's a medical doctor right now. Hope you're listening somewhere. I'm sitting next to, it's no big deal. This is what we see all day long. And then reality sets in reality for me set in when I went to Emory for grad school. Back to the unicorn point. So that, that was the kickoff, not as much because I had at least a handful of others. Then as I continued along fewer and fewer, but hey, look again, I'm working to change that. And I have so many others in the industry. Braxton Davis, he's my law school classmate who has a phenomenal company and, and he's done great work in terms of creating partnerships to where patent agents or soon-to-be patent agents really get the experience they need so there could be pretty much to no excuse as to why you don't have full representation at your firm or your company.
April Abele Isaacson (19:36):
No, it's, it's funny too, because you mentioned going to Emory and then all of a sudden you're outside the environment and you realize what you had that you didn't fully appreciate. At the time I had the same experience. I went to the University of Chicago for graduate school, right after Mount Holyoke and you know, love the University of Chicago, wonderful, so nothing bad to say, but it was interesting because in my lab we had the, the head of the lab was originally from England and we had quite a few post-docs that were from England and I was wearing my Mount Holyoke college sweatshirt and they asked me what that was. And I explained that it was a women's college. And they said women's college? We don't, we don't have women's colleges in Europe. Why do you need a women's college and explained it was because we weren't allowed to go to Ivy League schools and to them, it was mind blowing. They couldn't even understand that that was a thing. And when I started college in 1984, it was only 10 years before that women were allowed to go to Ivy League schools. In terms of actually being part of the specific university, not an affiliated university or college, I should say, not an affiliated college with one of the Ivy League schools. So for them, that seemed like an arcane concept in the United States of America, which was really interesting.
Kristina Travaillot (20:53):
So I listened to the both of you and April will continue with Season Two, bringing in our fabulous associate Kate Geyer. So there will be the juxtaposition of like 50–30, the older generation and the newer generation coming in. And then Kim, while she is not continuing with Season Two, she is still on the path. So I feel like it's a parallel path of working, education, exposing the younger generation, really, really young generation to what is possible. So while it diverges, it's still focusing on, I hate to say the pipeline, but for like the pipeline to continue to make sure that it is full, it is vibrant, it is diverse. And we can see someone, a woman lawyer, a woman chemist, and be able to emulate them and be them as they figure out who they wanna be. I know it's a divergent path, but it's still the same mission.
April Abele Isaacson (22:10):
Yeah. And I can just kick it off a little bit in that regard. And then I know, you know, Kim will, will pipe in whenever she wants and feel free to interrupt me as well. But the thing I look at it as I feel like I have a personal responsibility to the next generation of women and underrepresented groups, not only in the law, just in general. I was thinking about because for International Women's Day the theme is Break the Bias. And thinking about an example, I know Kristina had asked me, you know, to put in something for our firm as part of the International Women's Day campaign, Break the Bias. And I was asking my husband last night, I was like, well, I'm trying to think of something because there's so many things that I've kind of dealt with in my career in terms of the bias. And then I was having a hard time coming up with an example, not because I didn't have one, but something that was gonna be powerful and kind of try to explain without sounding like you're whining to be honest, you know? And, and I feel like I want, and I maybe I'm just, you know, talking just, you know, off the top of my head, but I just feel like my job now is of course to do my job, but it's actually to get that next generation the opportunities that I did not have and kind of focus on them. So not just myself, but them. I hope that makes sense.
Kimberlynn Davis (23:48):
It does. It makes perfect sense. To your point, there's so much work to be done in this area. And I think first of all, your choice to participate in the Women's History Month Break the Bias campaign, I think that speaks volumes. People need to hear your story, right? You have you, and, and we've talked about this previously, you have made it much easier for the Kim Davis's of the world to come in and be confidently vocal, right? And say, no, I don't agree with this. And here are my reasons why in a very respectful way, of course, because that's how we do things in the South. But still you, you have helped to pave the way. And I think that it's very important that that information is not lost on us, that it was not always the way it is now in terms of being able to be heard as a woman. So I applaud you for that work. One, one thing I noted and I, I noted it, even in, in my comments just now I felt the need to say, oh, but of course I'll be nice and respectful and I'll be her. And, and I April, I would love for you and Kate to, to tackle that a little bit in the next season if you will just, you know, this idea in my mind, my role as a black woman—i.e. the unicorn in the room—is to make sure every single person is super comfortable. That no one feels intimidated at all. No one feels challenged. No one feels I have a chip on my shoulder. No one thinks I'm the angry black woman. Right? And to make sure I don't come across that way, I feel I bend over backwards. My mom brought it to my attention. She was like, "baby, you can't smile any harder than what you're smiling right now." She didn't say it was too much, but I almost felt that that's what she was getting at. You can bring your full self to the table and not bend over backwards making every single person feel confident and comfortable that you're not trying to challenge them. You're not challenging them by just being you, by bringing what you bring to the table there. So I would absolutely love if you could pick up some of those topics and making sure that we don't feel the need to overcompensate. That's not even the right word to, to diminish ourselves almost, right? It with a version of ourselves that isn't the true picture but it's to make others feel more comfortable.
April Abele Isaacson (26:25):
It's a good point because there's this amount self-editing that you do. And one of the things I was talking to Kate about not during a recording episode, but just on, you know, another conversation was there was behavior at law firms 20 years ago that I think the word I used was accepted. And I think she said it was really more that people thought it was acceptable. I mean, And I'm not talking about this firm, but I worked at places where you had to just put up with being sexually harassed constantly. And it was, some of was not overt, other instances, it was overt. There were people that felt like it was acceptable to yell at you, scream at you, throw books at you. I, I don't know that I shared it when we were on tape before, but I remember showing up for a deposition and the person just assuming that the court reporter. And then when I said I was actually an attorney, then asking me who was gonna actually take the deposition because it couldn't possibly have been me. I was asked to fetch coffee for people. There was one instance where I was a newly minted partner and I was at a different law firm and it was very apparent to the opposing counsel that I was, it was not my office because it was in Boston and he knew that I worked in San Francisco. I was defending the CEO of our company for a weeks long deposition. He had an associate sitting next to him, putting stickers on exhibits, getting paid to do that, and on the video, it was still, we were still on tape, he waved papers in the air and told me to go make photocopies for him. And I crossed my arms and I said to him, "I am not making photocopies for you. You can get that associate who's getting paid to put stickers on exhibits to figure out out where the photocopier is in this office. And I'm not putting up with this behavior." But the fact that I had to say that as a partner was something, and this is less than 20 years ago. This was mind blowing to me. But those are just a few instances of some of the things that I had to do. So I feel like I went from accepting that behavior to starting to feel that I could push up against it. And I know with Kate, with her generation and she, you know, she's strong and just a fearless woman from my perspective. So I think that hopefully she'll be able to get that message across that you can be your authentic self and be a strong woman and be able to kind of break through and continue to make change.
Kimberlynn Davis (29:15):
No, that all sounds it's just very encouraging to hear. And, and even if we're attacking it on the women's front right now, right? Because I, I think we all would agree that at the discussion deepens a little bit, when you start throwing in an additional factor on top of being a female. Right. So, so April in your scenario that you just laid out, I bet it never ran across your mind, whether you would then be labeled the angry woman because of your response. Right? That that's...
April Abele Isaacson (29:45):
It kind of did. It kind of did, especially because we were on, on tape, right? I was thinking that, but I didn't care because at that point I was, I was, I was sick of having to edit myself and deal with these, not even micro-aggressions, I mean, very aggressive behavior treating me like it was, you know, something that was acceptable in 1952. And it wasn't something that should have been acceptable then, but it was behavior that some of these men thought was okay. And, and I decided that it was time to really take a stand and be more, I don't wanna say aggressive because that's not the right word, more forceful, perhaps that's the better word.
Kristina Travaillot (30:27):
Like Colleen Bear would say assertive in the Vision 20–20 Episode, assertive, like stepping into your role as a partner and showing that you have earned that spot. And that's the, not necessarily your job anymore. That's never your job anyway.
April Abele Isaacson (30:46):
Well, and that's the thing. And then it goes back to, you know, these are tropes that have been dealt with for centuries, where if you're an assertive woman, you're a bitch, right? You go in and you give an aggressive cross examination that is just spot on and somehow you're the nasty woman who's, you know, overly aggressive. And if a guy does it, his friends are high fiving him because he just crushed it. And it's, as I was mentioning to Kate, I find that I've often been underestimated and I'm sure Kim you've dealt with that as well, based on just visually looking at us and making a lot of assumptions about who we are. Because you know, I'm a fairly petite woman and you Kim, as a black woman, that people just visually look at us and make a lot of assumptions. And I, I don't know if you feel like you've been underestimated or how you would describe it, Kim.
Kimberlynn Davis (31:46):
Well, it depends on who we're speaking with. Right? And, and their exposure. Some people to this day will probably still say, "I still don't see how she got where she is." Others are like, "why did it take so long? I'm confused. That should have been years ago." But April, I need to roll back, just something you said you, you were characterizing the ways that when you push back, others would refer to you and you used aggressive and nasty. And the B word—y'all know I don't curse cause I'm Southern. Kidding, catch me on the wrong day. But, but really I'm being in, in all seriousness here, angry that word angry has a special meaning when it comes to black women. And when we are labeled as angry, that is almost I'm reminded of Mrs. Obama. Not that I'm saying I'm on Mrs. Obama's level. But when she made a comment, when her husband was running for office, something to the effect of, she was proud of her country or something like that, that comment spiraled until, and she's silent. Meanwhile, she is silent during this time. At the end of the day, she becomes the angry black woman. Now how does that comment then take flight and turn you into angry. Right? And, and that's, that's the line that I walk. It's a very, very delicate balance. I don't get labeled as aggressive. I don't get labeled as nasty. I don't get that. I am immediately angry. I have a chip on my shoulder and that gives the person interpreting me and characterizing me in that manner that gives them the Liberty to then dismiss anything else that comes out of my mouth. So when I was a younger professional, right, I wanted to make sure that that didn't happen, that couldn't happen. I masked the true Kim, right? The, the Kim who let's just be, be real. I have a very, uh, let's see, how would we say it? Not volatile, but I am very spirited. Let's say that I'm spirited,
April Abele Isaacson (33:54):
A strong personality in a good way.
Kimberlynn Davis (33:56):
Very strong personality. And we can something and I will get very passionate about an issue. And then we move on and I'm fine. Right? But, but this, this attempt to put me in a category based on these moments of spirited discussion, right? To don't, don't do that with Kim because you know, she's pretty angry, she's angry in general, so we're gonna dismiss her position completely. Right? And let's focus on the perspective from a woman who may just give us an aggressive take. Right? So, so do you see where I'm going there? I'm sorry to say it, but black women have a different challenge and a different struggle than that of other women, I'm sorry. There's no other way that I can be delicate about it. Right? And, and that's just that's reality in America in 2022.
April Abele Isaacson (34:49):
Absolutely. And I'm listening to what you're saying. And one of the things I'm thinking is it's these snapshots in time that people take and what they're really doing is taking away power...
Kimberlynn Davis (35:03):
Yes.
April Abele Isaacson (35:03):
...Right? It's, that's how I, and I'm actually sort of got like chills, just thinking about it because that's really what it is. Is that it's this attempt or desire perhaps to take away power. What are your thoughts on that, Kim?
Kimberlynn Davis (35:19):
I think you have hit the nail on the head right there, April. It's an attempt to make sure, you know, society has certain boxes and we all need to fit neatly within. Right? So when you kind of step outside of what someone expects from you... In a meeting this morning, I was in, as a matter of fact, I asked a question that had the Board looking at me like, "oh, wait, wait, did that just come out of her mouth? Because we were prepared for this type of question from someone like you, we weren't prepared for that question that came out of your mouth." So I think you're right. I think you're right. But, but to the extent, and I'm not saying that I need to remove all filters, I think no one needs to remove all filters, but to the extent that I felt the need to diminish myself to self diminish. So taking my own power away in that instance, right? To make others feel comfortable, I'm done.
April Abele Isaacson (36:17):
And that's the thing is that I understand, of course, that we live in a world where, and we're in a profession where there's a certain amount of, you know, maybe self-editing or whatever the word is, but taking away power and then feeling like you have to try to gain it back again..
Kimberlynn Davis (36:35):
Yeah.
April Abele Isaacson (36:35):
...And be able to be your authentic self and in a way it's sort of people trying to take your power and make you smaller. And invisible in a certain way. And you know, I know certainly with, you know, the history of this country, with not just black women, obviously, but black people in general, and certainly with women, isn't that part of what it was is that making us invisible, not be heard, and not have power?
Kimberlynn Davis (37:04):
That's right. That's right. To your point and other groups as well. You're absolutely right about that. But I mean, hey, that going back to Kristina's question about what's next. I mean, I think both of us are, are ready, right April? We're, we're ready to tackle some of these issues.
April Abele Isaacson (37:23):
Yeah. And part of it is, is that I'm kind of just fed up with feeling like that's what it is that we can't be ourselves and be strong, powerful women that have something to say. And it goes something I was just thinking about that I know we've both certainly dealt with is this concept of tokenism. Kim, I would, I would love for you to talk a little bit about how that's affected you.
Kimberlynn Davis (37:54):
Ooh. Gosh. Oh, that's such a good question. We're gonna have to edit some of this Kristina, just FYI. Let me think a little bit about how I wanna push this. I would be incredibly naive to say that every role that I've sat in is because, oh, they recognize my worth and what I bring to the table at the end of the day, sometimes it's about the fact that I couple of boxes for them. Right? So to your point about the tokenism, um, I represent that token. So, so I struggled with this for some years. It became a question of, so do I take a stance and say, you know what, it's not enough for me to just be on your team to check a couple of boxes? I need to make sure that I'm being involved in the work that's meaningful to me. I need to make sure that I'm not, you know, just, just playing this role that I fought so hard, and I am well credentialed to not be a part of, I stand on my own, but then I realized, "you know what, Kim, you're part of a team." So if being a part of a team means, yeah, you go ahead and you go along with it. And then you show out. You show the Kim Davis, no, no, no, no, sorry, the Kim Becknell from Xavier University of Louisiana, who will outshine anyone you put in her path in a certain area, when I'm in my area, no one can touch me in that. When I'm in my lane, I'm in my lane. It's just what it is. So I've decided to take that approach instead. Is it the right approach? I'm still not so sure. Will I eventually shift back over and say, "you know what, if I'm presented with a quote unquote opportunity in that manner, I will immediately shut it down." I don't know. I may go that way, but the way I currently stand is, okay, so however I got there, I'm there, but what are you gonna do once you get there?
Kristina Travaillot (40:00):
I'm reminded, we just had the great opportunity to do the recording for the interview with Kate Geyer our new co-host. And you know, the final question in all of, most of, our episodes when we do the interviews was what's your advice to the first and only. And in that conversation, Kate said—and this is to your point, Kim, about working with the system right now—is yes, she will, you know, she will embrace being the first, but also she will create new tables for that. So I feel like that was, and I know you weren't on that recording session, but I just feel like that transcended, her message there is exactly what you were saying. So you are going to work within the system now, change it to the way that you will make your own, you will create your own tables. So man, that's powerful.
April Abele Isaacson (41:09):
And it, and it was based on me asking a question because as both of you know, and I think our listeners that have been kind of involved in the listening to the podcast from the beginning, Shirley Chisholm is one of, one of my absolute favorite people. And I did have that opportunity to have her as a professor when I was at Mount Holyoke. And, you know, I paraphrase her, "if you don't, if they don't give you a seat at the table, bring your own folding chair." And the question to Kate was, but then there's this other concept you create your own table. And so it kind of goes to what you were saying, Kim as well. You know, sometimes we need to bring the folding chair to the round table and kind of elbow our way in to get there. But then there's also this sense of sort of like the new, the new girls network, right? And we're creating our own table and making sure that people know fine. You don't wanna give us a seat, well we're creating our own and we're gonna be here to support each other because that's the way I look at it. Yeah.
Kimberlynn Davis (42:06):
Love it.
Kristina Travaillot (42:07):
I think that's a great way to just kind of put our recap and say this is what the sisterhood of Sidebars created. It has created embracing being at that table, bringing in the folding chairs, and then on the side, continuing on with a great work of creating, not just a girls network, it's the black children, the Asian children, the underrepresented groups. They get to see us shine and step into the light and be us and bring our power into the world. So thank you so much for first of all, for saying yes to the podcast, cause that the original idea was just was articles, which was great, but these conversations have a lot of nuance. So thank you for saying yes. And if you have parting words, go ahead.
April Abele Isaacson (43:12):
Maybe the one thing that just to dovetail off of that Kristina is you're right that writing something or an article, but then that's different than having a voice and being heard. And for us to hear all of these women that were guests and obviously the three of us being able to express our voice. And then the one thing I do wanna say, and this is not gratuitous at all. This comes fully from the heart is, I wanna thank the leadership of this firm, the management of this firm for being so supportive of us doing this and letting us be our authentic selves, because if we didn't have their support, we couldn't be here today and be sharing this and having all of these outstanding women as guests open up their hearts and their homes really to us. So I wanna just, I just wanna thank the firm.
Kimberlynn Davis (44:04):
So again, that's a nice ditto that I'm gonna say after what you said April, but in Kristina, I know you're not gonna love me for doing this, but I just wanna thank you. I wanna thank you. I wanna thank Caleb. First of all, everyone sees the polished final version. No one sees the time and dedication that is put into creating. First of all, creating the podcast overall, you and Caleb took it from absolute nothing. It did not exist. You got artwork together. You navigated how to get us on every possible podcast platform. You had private discussions with us about how to improve, to make sure that all of our listeners are able to benefit from these discussions. You have calmed us down when we were fired up about whatever you've dealt with, ugly schedules, you've dealt with it all and have donen so, so graciously with a smile on your face, like our listeners can't see, but we can see it right now. And I just wanna thank you for thank you for being so bold, bold enough to not tackle, but, but to make sure you were able to get our attention to where we gave this, the time that was needed to make it into what it is. I appreciate you for allowing me to grow in this manner because I have grown a lot over the past year. So many thanks to you. Caleb, you're not on with us, but thank you so so much for all, you have done your unlimited devotion to this project.
April Abele Isaacson (45:41):
And if I could just continue with the love fest, just to a certain extent, for me, I'm proud that I get to call Kristina a friend. The other person I wanna give a shoutout is to John Page because he fully embraced us doing this. When Kristina presented the idea and just said, "let's just do it. Let's do it." So thank you to John as well.